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Licencing ?

Started by CliveW, September 18, 2023, 08:36:36 PM

CliveW

Hi All,

Its been some time since I posted questions related to licencing and hosting options etc. I look online and on youtube and its strange but licencing hardly ever seems to be a topic. Are members using services that include licencing or are they paying for it directly to PPL/PRS or the equivalent... just curious.

Cheers, Clive.

RadioPatrick

It looks like a lot of the station hosting services like Radio.co, Live365, and several others have some degree of broad license coverage themselves, though I've also seen some users in the forums who have mentioned sticking purely to free-use content. I honestly wouldn't be surprised if plenty of RDJ users are running pirate stations without even realizing it, to be honest.

-- Patrick

RadioDJ2022

Quote from: RadioPatrick on September 19, 2023, 04:30:54 PMIt looks like a lot of the station hosting services like Radio.co, Live365, and several others have some degree of broad license coverage themselves, though I've also seen some users in the forums who have mentioned sticking purely to free-use content. I honestly wouldn't be surprised if plenty of RDJ users are running pirate stations without even realizing it, to be honest.

-- Patrick

I'm guessing here are more pirate stations than people realise exist friends streaming for friends etc...

There are bound to be LOTS of Private servers that the Licensing authorities aren't aware of (Unless someone grasses them up)

Since Covid the amount of Streamers on the internet has exploded and i doubt they can keep up as to who's licenced and who isn't (Thats my best guess)

There are always going to be Pirates

CliveW

Quote from: DaveTheRave on September 19, 2023, 04:49:25 PMI'm guessing here are more pirate stations than people realise exist friends streaming for friends etc...

There are bound to be LOTS of Private servers that the Licensing authorities aren't aware of (Unless someone grasses them up)

Since Covid the amount of Streamers on the internet has exploded and i doubt they can keep up as to who's licenced and who isn't (Thats my best guess)

There are always going to be Pirates

Thanks for both of your feedbacks, I think you may be correct as many times I have chatted to other Radio DJ's the question of licencing is quickly ignored. I was under the impression that if you were caught then the fines will be huge, obviously it doesnt bother some folks but it worries the hell out of me. Don't get me wrong if there was a loophole I would use it too  :)

I would have thought that streaming services would be required to pass on details of whom is using the services and therefore the likes of PPL and PRS would know whom is broadcasting or at least have a list to check up on.

As I cant find anyway to protect myself from litigation from PPL/PRS and possibly others I will be forced to licence my station to the maximum, Although its strange that when I ask questions to these organisations they ignor me, for instance if 1 person listens to 15 songs in an hour is that 15 streams or 1 stream, and if 2 people do the same is that 2 streams or 30 streams ???? also if 6 people listen for 10 mins each in an hour what calculation is that ??? 90 streams ???  all I get is a standard reply regarding their calculator but this doesnt seem to take into account the above questions and seems to be targeted at stations with a larger audience.

I did this calculation.

15 tracks per hour = 360 per day
360 per day x 365 days = 131,400 per year

so if one person listens for an hour (24 people a day) on average that would be Band A @ £154 per year for PRS on their LOML

if 2 people listen for an hour (48 people per day) on average that would be Band B @ £306 per year for PRS on their LOML

If that is correct then it would only take 13 people per hour listening in to reach the top Band E and having to pay PRS £1,527 ??? that can't be right...can it ? and then on top of that the PPL licence @ 0.1181p per stream or is their definition of a stream 1 track...PPL wont tell me...LOLOLOLOLOL

The problem I can't get my head around is that if 1 person listens to 3 tracks in 10 minutes is that 1 stream or 3 streams or what, and what if they disconnect for a few minutes and reconnect ??? is that regarded as a new person listening or the same person, so 2 streams or the same person so 1 stream or what ????

Is it based on time connected to my stream or tracks listened too or the number of people listening at any one time. ???

How am I supposed to buy the correct licences if the calculation is so broad as to be impossible to work out. ???

Neither PPL nor PRS have been any help to me, they simply ignor my emails. or the 1 occassion the PRS did answer they just sent a PDF with their Band fees.

I understand that there is a calculator out there but it seems to not take into account 6 people listening for 10 mins each over an hour so again is that 6 streams x 3 tracks on average or what ???

Are we being licenced for average/actual tracks or streams or listeners or god only knows :bash:  :bash:  :bash:  :bash:  :bash:  :bash:

I hope the above rant is understandable and that someone can make it simple for me to understand as i'm a simple person.

I really want to do this totally legal but without knowing the calculation and their definitions i'm stumped, you would have thought that both PPL and PRS would love to help to generate income for the people they represent but they don't seem to give a sh*t. Its like a bizzare cat and mouse game.

I did get through on the phone once this week after ages on hold only to be told Covid is the reason (yawn), they then sent me the same old PDF that I already had totally ignoring what I had asked them to clarify... honestly you can't make this stuff up.

Anyone on here have a clue about how I approach this now ? 

Cheers
Clive.

CliveW

Quote from: RadioPatrick on September 19, 2023, 04:30:54 PMIt looks like a lot of the station hosting services like Radio.co, Live365, and several others have some degree of broad license coverage themselves, though I've also seen some users in the forums who have mentioned sticking purely to free-use content. I honestly wouldn't be surprised if plenty of RDJ users are running pirate stations without even realizing it, to be honest.

-- Patrick

Patrick, on the question of Free-Use content both PPL and PRS say that they consider it best practice to licence your station anyway "just in case", through my chat with them they do not seem to consider any content apart from just chat shows to be free-use or non copyright, they told me that even these could be interpreted as copyright due to jingles and other background items played... I think we cant win as they seem to hold all the cards and I suspect it would be nigh on impossible to challenge them through the courts due to the financial cost of it all.

I dont think Radio.co has any licensing agreements, from my reading you have to pay that seperately along with the scary monthly fees Radio.co charge, I may be wrong on this though.

I havent discovered any other service apart from Live365 that offer in built licencing, have you ? could you point me to this if possible.. Thanks.

Cheers
Clive.

RadioDJ2022

I despise the PRS and PPL had dealings with them in the 1990s as a Mobile DJ 

Now you have to send a playlist to PPL of songs you've played at that disco/venue glad I'm out of that game

Last time I looked into licencing it was beyond my means and wallet to even think about running a stream

Internet radio can be expensive Does the LIvE365 package cover you in the UK?

CliveW

#6
Quote from: DaveTheRave on September 20, 2023, 03:31:28 PMI despise the PRS and PPL had dealings with them in the 1990s as a Mobile DJ

Now you have to send a playlist to PPL of songs you've played at that disco/venue glad I'm out of that game

Last time I looked into licencing it was beyond my means and wallet to even think about running a stream

Internet radio can be expensive Does the LIvE365 package cover you in the UK?

Hi Dave, yeah Live365 does cover PPL and PRS in the UK, at present for their package 3 it would cost me about £1,920 or $2,388 per year.

I could pay PPL and PRS directly and it would be upwards of £2,000 per year as the lower licences just wont cover a station for 24/7/365.

It makes me angry when I look at what other contries licences cost...I think I read France was €80 per year ???, I dont object to artists being paid but I cant work out why some countries pay little and others pay lots for the same thing. I'm not going to start a commercial station, just a tiny hobby station with little or no advertising... its just a hobby not a cash machine like the big commercial stations.

I could do it for $948 or £765 per year as a very basic service with Live365 with no adverts.

Cheers.
Clive.

RadioPatrick

All of the following is dependent on your country, but I'd hold it to be mostly true for any of them. Honestly, I'd say the likelihood of being caught and have fines thrown at you for copyright infringement are slim, particularly if you're a small station and as long as nobody reports you. Even if you were making a terrestrial AM/FM station, which would be significantly easier for one to find, I'd be surprised if anyone came after you for not having all the licenses and such. I don't know the rules in the UK, but I can't imagine you wouldn't at least get a warning thrown your way first if some regulatory agency does find you without the correct license. At that point, worst case you can just rebrand and then they have to find you all over again  :D

I may have mixed up some websites when I was doing my reading earlier, and it does look like I was mistaken about Radio.co, though I'd like to think that there are more services than just Live365 that cover licensing. Using copyrighted content has never been financially reasonable for hobbyists and smaller users, so unfortunately that cost comes with the territory of not running a pirate station, in my opinion. That said, with so many people running internet stations, licensed or otherwise, using a hosting service or not, I honestly doubt that PPL or PRS is going to be really scouring the internet for unlicensed stations, especially smaller, non-commercial ones.

I do agree though, the PRS LOML costs are atrocious. I did some more reading and confirmed that you're right; if you play one song for six listeners, that counts as six streams under their pricing model, and if a listener hears more than 30 seconds of a song then they count as having heard it (aka one stream). The phrasing elsewhere on PRS pages imply to me that you need to track your listeners on your own in order to then choose the right license, which is also absurd. How on earth can these groups charge so much money annually and then politely ask you to self-audit too? To that end though, they graciously (sarcasm) allow you to retroactively upgrade your license if you find that you surpass the number of streams the purchased band covers.

From what I saw in my reading, you'd be reasonably covered by the PRS LOML band A (£154) and the PPL Linear Webcast License (£177). If you started to get a lot more listeners, it might end up being cheaper to look into a PPL and PRS Joint License for Community Radio, which will technically require an AM/FM broadcast and OFCOM license too, but ends up running around £1200 on the cheaper end and considers a "stream" to just be a person listening, regardless of how much they hear.

To cite my sources, though most of it may be redundant to you:
PRS LOML Summary
PRS FAQ which explains about what counts as a stream, amongst some other things
PPL Linear Webcast License Summary
PPL PRS Joint License for Community Radio Summary
If you're going to go the Joint License route, you should read the full agreement which the summary page has a link for, in order to make sure you can properly stand up to an audit.

That said, we haven't even opened the can of worms that is international licensing, as I'm pretty confident the PPL and PRS licenses only cover if your listeners are also in the UK.

-- Patrick

CliveW

Quote from: RadioPatrick on September 21, 2023, 10:44:41 PMFrom what I saw in my reading, you'd be reasonably covered by the PRS LOML band A (£154) and the PPL Linear Webcast License (£177). If you started to get a lot more listeners, it might end up being cheaper to look into a PPL and PRS Joint License for Community Radio, which will technically require an AM/FM broadcast and OFCOM license too, but ends up running around £1200 on the cheaper end and considers a "stream" to just be a person listening, regardless of how much they hear.


-- Patrick

Hi Patrick,

Many sincere thanks for your comments and the time you took with this answer, I read with great interest what you said and looked at the links given and agree that whilst it is confusing I may just be able to work something out. Im not sure given the calculations I did that the lowest bands of licence would cover me, it may...but only for a very few listeners, but then again thats all I may get  :D

Hopefully I may be able to convince one or two people to share the cost eventually... but thats a long way down the road.

It would be a shame to waste all my time and effort not to mention the cost of the kit sitting in box's in my office to let my interest in this go by the by So I'm going to try and get the station on air...finally.

Thanks for your comments.

Cheers
Clive.